The Immigration Minister Alex Hawke speaks to 7.30

LEIGH SALES, PRESENTER: Minister, thanks for your time.

ALEX HAWKE, IMMIGRATION MINISTER: Thanks, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: In your press release today, you said you were acting with “appropriate compassion.” What is appropriate compassion?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, what I have taken into account is the evolving situation in relation to the family that was held at Christmas Island. What that means is the health situation that had developed with one of the daughters, the ongoing length of time it will take to finalise a series of matters, some before the courts, some before me as minister and, of course, the situation in Sri Lanka currently with COVID-19.

LEIGH SALES: So, I’m just trying to get a sense of how you judge in a case like this, what is appropriate compassion and inappropriate compassion?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, as decision-maker these things come to me for fresh considerations, that was ordered by the Federal Court in February this year. So it takes some time to get a submission together.

I have to take into account all of the factors that relate to the family and that is their status in Australia, their immigration status, the length of time they have been here, their health and wellbeing, a range of factors, and I was able to take all that into account and issue a compassionate decision so that they could stay in the community in Perth, given the length of time it will take for us to finalise remaining matters.

LEIGH SALES: You used words like “compassionate” but isn’t the whole point of the turn back the boats policy to be as cruel as possible, because the policy is meant to act as a deterrent?

ALEX HAWKE: No, cruelty isn’t about the point of the policy. It is actually about compassion, that is about saving lives and protecting our borders. We believe ultimately that is the most compassionate thing that we can do as a country to well manage our migration program and our borders and that ultimately saves lives and has a better outcome for our society.

LEIGH SALES: But minister, the policy is sending potentially legitimate refugees home to countries where they could face persecution, torture or even death because of the method of their travel. How is that not cruel?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, no, that is actually not right. So if someone is found to engage Australia’s protection obligations, we have to take account of that.

I mean the situation with this family is they have been through many of our merits and judicial processes. They have been to the AAT (Administrative Appeals Tribunal), they have been to the Federal Court, the Federal Circuit Court, the full Federal Court, the High Court and at each stage of those merits and judicial processes, they have been found not to engage Australia’s protection obligations. That is the government’s position.

LEIGH SALES: No but I’m talking broadly about the policy, I’m talking broadly about the policy.

ALEX HAWKE: I couldn’t send a genuine refugee home; they would engage Australia’s protection obligations. So, here, the litigation they have taken has demonstrated, from the Government’s point of view, that they don’t engage Australia’s protection, is correct.

LEIGH SALES: Why is this family being kept in Perth, instead of being allowed to return to Biloela when the daughter, Tharnicaa, is out of hospital?

ALEX HAWKE: So the community residence determination I made was to ensure that they had access to the appropriate health care, that was on the advice of the WA Health officials who have contacted the federal department; to make sure they are in a safe community, while further matters are considered and I have looked at all those matters.

It will take a period of time for to us finalise all remaining matters that are in front of the AAT, a leave to appeal to the High Court and some matters before me as Minister. So that is an appropriate place, they will get care, they’ll get access to schools and they will be able to stay there…

LEIGH SALES: Sorry to interrupt I want to be totally clear, when the daughter is well again, when Tharnicaa is well again, is it possible that they would ever be returned to Biloela or will it be Perth or deportation?

ALEX HAWKE: Not under this residence determination, I have made. They will stay in the community in Perth. That is the decision I have taken today and that is where they will remain while all remaining matters are heard and that is appropriate because their immigration status hasn’t changed.

They are still unlawful non-citizens, that has been backed up by multiple tribunals and courts and we have to finalise remaining matters before we take another decision.

LEIGH SALES: How long do you think that it will take to finalise matters, because this has gone on for a really long time?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, you are right, Leigh. It has gone on for a long time and that is our system. People can litigate, it has been through all of those courts and tribunals I have mentioned, they have not been found to engage Australia’s protection.

There are two outstanding matters, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, about the citizenship of one of the daughters and then a High Court leave to appeal. The High Court will make its own decision about whether they will hear that matter and then there are some matters in front of me about lifting the bar for the final daughter to make an appeal.

So, those are the matters. That will take a number of months for us to go through all of those processes.

LEIGH SALES: But could you not exercise your ministerial power right now to make an exemption to say, “Okay, you are allowed to stay, you can go back to Biloela”.

ALEX HAWKE: It is possible that I could do that. I have decided not to do that because there has been no change in their immigration status and also because I feel that it is best for them in Perth at the moment given their health and medical situation.

LEIGH SALES: How many asylum seekers who have arrived in Australia by boat or plane since 2013 have been granted ministerial discretion to stay in Australia? How many times has the minister used those powers?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, there have been people given ministerial interventions in the past under very exceptional circumstances. The Government’s border protection policies have been very clear for a long time now that people who arrive by boat won’t be permanently resettled in Australia.

Now they may engage Australia’s …

LEIGH SALES: But there have been…

ALEX HAWKE: …. protection obligations.

LEIGH SALES: Sorry if I am understanding correctly …

ALEX HAWKE: Or by very rare exception basis if someone was dying or another matter. I can provide you with some accurate figures, but the policy is crystal clear, and that is that you cannot permanently resettle here, Leigh.

LEIGH SALES: If there has been some exemptions though, that hasn’t opened the flood gates to create a whole load of boats coming to Australia, which is what you said today would happen if these people were granted exemption.

ALEX HAWKE: Well, absolutely. That is our consistent advice and the border protection regime that we put in place has not been agreed to. It has been heavily contested. Labor has changed it on many occasions, weakened it.

We have seen what the consequences of that are – tens of thousands of people here. You have got to remember Leigh, here, when Labor was last in office, there were thousands of people from Sri Lanka in detention and about 1,000 Sri Lankan children were in detention.

Now when we came to office, we got every single child out of detention by a change in our policy and stopping the boats and we are not going to go back to that.

LEIGH SALES: Is boat turn backs, still the policy?

ALEX HAWKE: Absolutely, Operation Sovereign Borders is still in place.

LEIGH SALES: When was the last time one was turned back?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, there have been incidences at sea. I can provide you with the details in the last year or so, they do occur from time to time.

LEIGH SALES: And if turn backs still do occur at sea, how would the flood gates open because we would be intercepting them and turning them back around?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, as you know, Leigh, there are push and pull factors and if we change our policy here, our advice is current and strong, that if we change the pull factors in Australia, that is there is a weakening of our system, the people smuggling trade is very alive to that.

It is an insidious trade in human misery, and they know how to take advantage of it – real or perceived changes in the migration policy. That is why the Government is insistent on this and we know what happens if that trade restarts. People traffick in human mystery and nobody in Australia supports that.

LEIGH SALES: According to evidence provided to Senate Estimates in May, the cost to detain the family on Christmas Island from August 2019 to January this year was $6.7 million, including $2.3 million for detention, food, cleaning, school costs; $1.2 million for travel costs; $100,000 for medical costs plus others. Who is the contractor paid that money to run up $2.3 million for a family of four on food, cleaning and school?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, those costs aren’t broken down just for food, cleaning and schools.

LEIGH SALES: That is a lot of money, right – $6.7 million?

ALEX HAWKE: Yeah, and I will be clear, the cost of border protection is high, but it is money well-spent. The cost of not having a well-run border protection regime is much higher in human life.

LEIGH SALES: But how is $6.7 million money well spent on this family of four?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, if you have to operate facilities in remote parts of Australia, it is expensive, there is no doubt about it and we don’t make any bones about that.

We have to have a well-managed border protection regime. The cost of not having one is much higher in dollars and in human life and in a loss of cohesion for our country. So it is money well spent in border protection.

LEIGH SALES: On another matter, have you ever met QAnon sympathiser, Tim Stewart.

ALEX HAWKE: Never.

LEIGH SALES: The family of Mr Stewart says that they rang the national security hotline twice to report their concerns about a threat posed by him and his son Jesse. Are you aware whether that information was ever acted on?

ALEX HAWKE: I am unaware of that and obviously, I have seen some of that program last night, I have to say I find it pretty bizarre.

I don’t see there being any serious allegations out of that program, to be honest.

LEIGH SALES: When a family rings the national security hotline to report their concerns about the potential activity of a man with known ties to QAnon, who has direct access to the Prime Minister and whose wife works for the Prime Minister’s family, you don’t think that is worthy of serious investigation, for a whole range of reasons, including the security of the Prime Minister?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, Leigh, all of that would be dealt with in the usual way by the national security hotline.

It would be highly inappropriate if I, as a minister was brought into it, in any way, shape or form and you would be asking questions about that if I had been.

So the fact that nothing has ever happened from it will tell you something about that information and those are simply allegations but if you look at the character of that program last night, this is a family fighting each other about matters within that family.

I didn’t see anything serious about the Prime Minister or anything that would warrant this level of attention.

LEIGH SALES: Well, as I just pointed out, it is a man who is a known QAnon sympathiser, a group that the FBI says potentially could engage in domestic terrorism and he has does have a direct path to the Prime Minister. You don’t think that is worthy of closer attention?

ALEX HAWKE: I didn’t see a direct path to the Prime Minister last night.

LEIGH SALES: There were photographs of them together and evidence of him at Kirribilli.

ALEX HAWKE: Well, Leigh, I can only speak to what I know. I have known the Prime Minister for 20 years; he has never had an extreme view that I’m aware of.

LEIGH SALES: I’m not suggesting that he does.

ALEX HAWKE: He is not involved in conspiracy theories.

LEIGH SALES: I’m not suggesting that he is.

ALEX HAWKE: He is actually less ideological than I am. He is a very balanced guy.

LEIGH SALES: I am not saying that he is. I’m raising actually issues about his security if this person has access to him?

ALEX HAWKE: Well, my question is why, Leigh? What is the evidence? I mean there is none and frankly, that show last night I felt was in poor judgement going ahead.

LEIGH SALES: Alex Hawke, thanks for your time.

ALEX HAWKE: Thanks, Leigh.