Malcolm Turnbull tells robodebt inquiry ‘I did not turn my mind to the legality of the program’

Malcolm Turnbull has told a royal commission that he didn’t turn his mind to the legality of the robodebt scheme while he was prime minister, saying it never occurred to him it was “unauthorised”.

The commission is investigating why and how the Coalition’s unlawful Centrelink debt recovery scheme was established in July 2015 and ran until November 2019, ending in a $1.8bn settlement with hundreds of thousands of victims.

The decision to implement the program was made by Tony Abbott’s cabinet for the May 2015 budget, but it was launched at scale under Turnbull, who became prime minister in September that year.

Appearing via video link on Monday, Turnbull said his concerns had been about “accuracy and fairness”, adding that he assumed the scheme was legal as it had been “represented” when it was established.

“I did not turn my mind to the legality of the program,” Turnbull told the inquiry. “It never occurred that it was unauthorised.”

The massive ramp-up of Centrelink’s debt-raising activities resulted in significant public controversy in late 2016 and early 2017, prompting Turnbull to voice some concerns with the then human services minister, Alan Tudge.

On Monday, the commission was shown WhatsApp messages between Turnbull and Tudge, as well as the then social services minister, Christian Porter.

On 7 January 2017, Turnbull sent Tudge a link to a Sydney Morning Herald article by Peter Martin that was highly critical of the scheme and said the way it calculated debts could be unlawful.

In the WhatsApp exchange, Tudge replied by saying “it is not correct that we simply take the average of the income declared to ATO and apply that average across 26 fortnights”.

Despite Tudge’s explanation, the commissioner, Catherine Holmes, told the inquiry on Monday that was how the scheme often worked.

Asked if it became apparent that’s what was happening, Turnbull said he didn’t “recall that”.

More broadly, Turnbull said he had accepted what Tudge had told him about the program, as the “responsible minister”.

Asked if he believed Tudge had a good grasp on how the system worked, Turnbull said he regarded the minister “as a technocrat”, noting he was a former consultant.

“I didn’t regard him as being a negligent or incompetent or careless minister,” Turnbull said.

Turnbull also pointed to the 2015 budget submission outlining the robodebt scheme, brought to cabinet by then social services minister, Scott Morrison, which stated that “no legislation is required” for the budget measures.

Morrison said last year it was “distressing” that he’d not been told about legal advice his department held suggesting the proposal was unlawful. Other ministers have also pointed to the checklist, telling the royal commission they were misled by the public service.

Turnbull, who was communications minister at the time and not involved in the proposal, has since seen the submission.

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“The representation … is legislation is not required,” Turnbull told the inquiry. “It’s clear what it says.”

The WhatsApp messages show Turnbull checking in with Tudge and Porter during the first half of 2017 while the scheme was paused and the subject of inquiries from the commonwealth ombudsman and the Senate.

On 13 January 2017, Porter, who was the senior minister in the portfolio, but not directly responsible for running the program, identified some technical issues with the program, but told Turnbull the “media temperature on the issue has notably declined”. He added that he believed Tudge had the “situation in hand”.

On the same day, Tudge told Turnbull: “My assessment is apart from [the ABC] and [the Guardian], this is no longer a story of any significant size.”

Turnbull told the inquiry that later, on 20 January 2017, he messaged Tudge to press him on the program.

“I say, ‘Alan, we need a frank assessment of what the problems are,’ and what was happening to fix them,” Turnbull said. “‘Are you sure the department is giving you the right advice on what is happening?’

“I guess I was pressing him, commissioner, to do his job.”

Tudge told the inquiry he never asked for advice on the legality of the program and denied he was responsible if his department had also failed to check.

Turnbull said he had little independent recollection of the time aside from the WhatsApp messages and other documents.

The royal commission continues.