Interview with Frank Dobson and Matthew Taylor

…………………………………………………………………….. ON THE RECORD RECORDED FROM TRANSMISSION BBC-1 DATE: 18.6.95 …………………………………………………………………….. JOHN HUMPHRYS: This week, the Shell Oil company will sink an old oil rig – the Brent Spar – in the Atlantic. The British Government thinks that’s the right thing to do. Others – including the German Government – think it’s a disgrace and will cause untold environmental damage. In Germany, Shell filling stations are being boycotted by motorists, encouraged by the politicians. What’s the Opposition view here? With me: the Shadow Environment Secretary, Frank Dobson; and from Truro, the Liberal Democrat spokesman, Matthew Taylor. Mr. Taylor, your view about what Shell’s up to. MATTHEW TAYLOR MP: Well when these rigs were built in the North Sea, the pledge was that they would all be taken away again and the North Sea would be returned to its previous condition. The reneging on that promise appals me, it appals other European governments and it appals a wide range of environmental groups, not just Greenpeace, and they are right to be appalled, there’s heavy metals, oils, radioactive material, it’s the exact opposite of the polluter pays and in this case, the government’s allowing the polluter to get out of paying. HUMPHRYS: So what should be done about it, you know what they are doing in Germany, politicians urging a boycott, a very effective boycott it seems of Shell filling stations? TAYLOR: Well what we need to do is bring pressure on Shell and the British Government to act, indeed… HUMPHRYS: How? TAYLOR: Shell have indicated that they would reconsider if the British Government asked them to, so that means political pressure on the government and it means pressure on Shell as well. I am delighted to see consumers avoiding Shell in other countries, I hope people will do the same in this country because the British people don’t want to be labelled as the government appears to be prepared to be labelled, the polluters of the North Sea. HUMPHRYS: So the Liberal Democrats support a boycott of Shell filling stations, in short? TAYLOR: Well we need to bring pressure to stop this pollution incident happening and one of the ways to bring that pressure is economic. The reason Shell don’t want to dispose of the rig properly is that it will cost them money, so consumers have to cost them money in other ways instead. HUMPHRYS: Frank Dobson, what’s your view of what’s happening? FRANK DOBSON MP: Well we believe that it was wrong for Shell to propose to just dump their spare equipment, their clapped out equipment in the sea and we think it was wrong for the government to allow them to do it. The thing that I think will gore many people in this country is here you’ve got a multi-million pound, multi-national company, they’re being allowed the cheapest option, dumping in the sea whereas people all over Britain are having to pay massive increases in their water bills because the water companies are investing in new sewage plants so that ordinary people aren’t polluting the sea. Now if ordinary people are paying through the nose to avoid polluting the sea we ought not to allow multi-national companies to get away with the cheapest option. HUMPHRYS: Oughtn’t not to allow it. So what would the Labour Party say ought to be done at this stage? DOBSON: We would say that the promises that the oil companies made and successive governments have made about the North Sea, should be honoured, the stuff should be brought ashore, broken up ashore which would create jobs and it would be clean solution. HUMPHRYS: But Shell have said they won’t do that. DOBSON: Well Shell should be told that they’ve got to do it, it’s quite straight forward, they could be told that they’ve got to do it, they need government permission to do what they’ve doing, they should bring it ashore, they should break it up, they should separate out all the dangerous materials. That would create quite a lot of good quality jobs but the worst thing of course is that we’ve got government ministers now saying this could be the first of fifty oil installations in the North Sea that they’re going to be allowed just to dump. HUMPHRYS: So what would you do? I mean what’s the Labour Party suggesting, I mean how are you going to do…to bring pressure onto Shell to…or the government to change its mind. DOBSON: Well there’s a licensing system, the companies only operate in the North Sea because they operate under license and the license conditions, if they don’t already lay down that they’ve got to do what the British Government should do, then the British Government should change the licenses. HUMPHRYS: And what about the consumers? Ought people to boycott Shell garages? DOBSON: Well, I think very many people are very upset about what’s going on and if they feel like bringing a bit of pressure to bear on Shell all to do the good. HUMPHRYS: Matthew Taylor was quite clear about the Liberal Democrats position it is to say to people – boycott Shell garages. DOBSON: A lot of people are already doing that sort of thing. If they don’t like what…if they think that companies who are supplying things are doing things that are dirty and environmentally damaging and a threat to our future and that they are pursuing cheap-jack policies at the expense of everybody else, if the only thing that they listen to is money, then one way of bringing pressure to bear on them is saying: “oh we won’t buy your petrol we’ll buy somebody else’s”. HUMPHRYS: So you support a boycott? DOBSON: If that’s what people want to do they should boycott yes. HUMPHRYS: And you yourself would boycott, you wouldn’t buy your petrol from a Shell garage. DOBSON: I don’t have a car so… HUMPHRYS: Well then it doesn’t really apply, what about paraffin for your heater or something… DOBSON: …what I’m saying is, if..I believe..but it’s really at the heart..it’s the government’s decision. The government are responsible for the situation in the North Sea, the government are responsible for the behaviour of the oil companies and that’s..so they should take their responsibility seriously. HUMPHRYS: So your position is the same as the Liberal Democrats, the Labour Party’s position is the same as the Liberal Democrats – boycott Shell, put pressure on them to change their policy. DOBSON: The British Government can tell them that they will not be allowed to do it and that’s what the British Government should do. The British Government have allowed Shell to do this, the British Government should stop them and certainly we shouldn’t have ministers going on saying: this may be the first of fifty or more oil installations that are going to be…. HUMPHRYS: Let’s be quite clear because Matthew Taylor was quite clear about this, you are saying to the consumers, unless Shell changes its view, assuming the British Government doesn’t put any pressure on of its own, unless Shell changes its view, people ought to boycott Shell. DOBSON: Yes I think they should. HUMPHRYS: Right good. Matthew Taylor…I don’t mean good I agree with you, I mean thank you for the answer. DOBSON: I don’t mind what you think. HUMPHRYS: Quite so. Matthew Taylor, Greenpeace have been taking direct action here, they’ve been putting members on the rig and getting in the way in all sorts of ways, what’s your view about that? TAYLOR: Well I think it’s been an extremely effective protest and were it not for the action that Greenpeace has been taking I don’t believe that the issue would have been raised in this country as it has been, I don’t believe that we would have had a chance of getting Shell to change their mind. Clearly, when it gets to the point that lives are directly put at risk, I hope that that won’t happen and it’s important that Shell bear that in mind. But, I think it’s been an effective protest and I congratulate you on finally getting Frank Dobson to say that he thought there should be..consumers shouldn’t buy from Shell. HUMPHRYS: Isn’t it a bit irresponsible for any party to encourage the kind of direct action that might lead to loss of life. I mean we do have laws in this country, don’t we. TAYLOR: The only area that I would be concerned about is if Greenpeace felt that they were beyond the law but that isn’t the case, they understand that if they take action that is actually illegal, that may end up with them being taken to court. HUMPHRYS: Conduct likely to lead to a breach of the peace, that’s a legal offence isn’t it? TAYLOR: Well I think in this cas what we’re seeing is effective, peaceful action, on the oil rig. I think that that’s been effective and I don’t believe that they’ve stepped beyond the level that people in this country wouldn’t believe was right. The extraordinary thing in this, is not the action of Greenpeace, who are rightly highlighting the problems on..with the dumping of the oil rig, the extraordinary thing is that the British Government, alone in Europe, is backing the dumping, the pollution of the North Sea against their previous policies and against just about every other government that surrounds the North Sea. HUMPHRYS: Frank Dobson, your view about the kind of direct action that Greenpeace has taken, not just on this but on many other things. DOBSON: Well on many other issues, Greenpeace have taken direct action, it’s drawn attention to things, they make private representations, all sorts of people make private representations to people who are doing things that harm the environment, no-body takes a blind bit of notice and so Greenpeace then restort to direct action. I don’t want anybody to do anything that endangers either their own lives or anybody elses. HUMPHRYS: But breaking the law, I mean if they are breaking the law. DOBSON: I don’t know whether they are breaking the law and certainly I think they’ve already done enough to draw attention to the situation because it wouldn’t be on this programme if they hadn’t done it, would it? HUMPHRYS: Frank Dobson, Matthew Taylor, thank you both very much. …oooOOOooo…