Barnaby Joyce: the most perplexing contradictions in his account of the Morrison ministry scandal

Barnaby Joyce was asked on Sunday what he knew, didn’t know and didn’t want to know about Scott Morrison’s additional powers.

The answers were hard to follow, to say the least. The former deputy prime minister said he kinda knew Morrison had appointed himself as resources minister and taken over the decision of the controversial Pep-11 gas licence off the NSW coast, but he also didn’t know.

It was just one of the apparent inconsistencies in Joyce’s 10-minute interview with David Speers on the ABC’s Insiders program, as the former leader of the Nationals ducked and weaved his way through questions on what he knew and when about Morrison’s stalking horse ministries. Here are some of the most perplexing moments.

Joyce ‘obliquely’ knew Morrison had sworn himself in as resources minister, but he also didn’t know

Joyce said he “arrived there obliquely” when asked by David Speers when he became aware Morrison had appointed himself resources minister (while Nationals MP Keith Pitt was in the role).

“Obviously I wasn’t aware of it at the start because it happened prior to me coming back as leader, and then over a period of time and discussions to the Pep-11 it became more apparent that the prime minister had greater powers than I initially assumed.”

But then he said that Morrison told him he was sworn in

Joyce: It worked over a period of time where the prime minister, Scott Morrison got to a position and said, “I can overrule him.”

Q: Did you say, how can you overrule the minister?

Joyce: Well, he had said he was sworn in, but you just take the decision back to cabinet.

Q: So he did say he was sworn in as the minister?

Joyce: Look, and I’m not being evasive, I just can’t quite remember exactly where that final statement went.

Q: Hang on, you can’t remember the prime minister saying to you, your National party minister is being overruled here.”

Joyce: I believe he did, right, but if you said, “Tell me exactly the time and place”… I believe he did.

Q: So you believe Scott Morrison did [tell you].

Joyce: I believe he did, but it happened over a sort of period of time and it came into place before my time. It was not my decision.

‘There is nothing confusing about it, David, listen to me. Keith Pitt was the minister,’ Barnaby Joyce has told the ABC’s Insiders. Photograph: Mike Bowers/The Guardian But then Joyce didn’t know

“The discussion that I had with the prime minister was purely around Pep-11. He never went into that he had powers on everything that Keith Pitt could do … He never said to me, ‘I was the minister for resources.’ He never said that to me.”

And there was no conversation, despite Joyce previously saying Morrison had told him he was sworn in:

“How many times do you want to ask me this, David [Speers]? This is like the seventh time,” he said.

“I told you I didn’t know when I came in because the decision was made before me. There was no distinct conversation that happened, [it was] obliquely over a period of time. It only revolved around the Pep-11 decision. The Pep-11 decision was made by the prime minister. It is on file, you can watch it yourself. There is a press conference. What else do you want.”

Keith Pitt was the decision maker, except when he wasn’t

Joyce insists that Pitt remained the decision maker in the portfolio – but in the same breath, says the only time he wasn’t was over Pep-11.

Q: Who was the responsible minister for resources?

Joyce: Well, it ultimately, it really remained with Keith. It was the Pep-11 decision.

Q: Who was the responsible minister on that decision?

Joyce: Mate, I’ve just gave you the answer. It is ultimately Keith Pitt on everything. It was the Pep-11 decision. Don’t ask me a third time.

Q: Well, I’m still confused, was it Scott Morrison or Keith Pitt?

Joyce: There is nothing confusing about it, David, listen to me. Keith Pitt was the minister, and I’m telling you, there is no trick, hockery pickery trick to this.

But Joyce later says Morrison was the decision maker.

“He actually gave the announcement, David. Do you want anything clearer than that? What else are you looking for, [that] archangel Gabriel was holding his hand? What more do you want?”

Scott Morrison’s secret ministries: the week in Australian politics with Amy Remeikis – video Joyce ‘wasn’t particularly curious’ because he might lose the extra Nationals ministry

Ultimately, despite what he knew or didn’t know, or was told or wasn’t told, Joyce admits he “wasn’t particularly curious” because he was protecting the deal he had negotiated with Morrison for an extra ministry and staff for the Nationals, as well as the regional Australia project spend.

We knew the Nationals had received the extra ministry, and that there had been promises for projects in regional Australia as part of the Nationals agreement to the Coalition signing up to net zero by 2050, but we didn’t know there were extra staff as part of the agreement.

Joyce admits he wasn’t going to ask questions and put the negotiated deal at risk.

“I thought I would ask myself three questions: Is it legal? Under section 64, he can do that. Is there anything I can do to change it back? No. Has he got the capacity to re-negotiate my extra minister that I had just dealt into the National party hand? Yes, he could say, ‘Yeah, I will fix your problem, mate. I will take the ministry back off you. Problem fixed for you. Problem fixed for me. Bad outcome for the National party.’

“… I had negotiated an extra minister which we were not entitled to. I had another person on ERC [Expenditure Review Committee] which [we were not entitled to] …

“I had negotiated more staff [for] the National party which we were not entitled to. We brought about one of the biggest deals in looking after regional Australia in the history of Australia.”

Q: So you thought this was a fair deal, a fair trade?

Joyce:

“I’m repeating the answer, David, I gave to you before. The prime minister’s solution to me, if I had pursued this was quite simple. He just took away the portfolio that we weren’t entitled to and took us back to the number we were entitled to. He would have the portfolio back and we would lose all power. Logically, think of it yourself. And I didn’t do this decision. These were the cards I had been dealt with.”

The public doesn’t care, Joyce says, even though his own colleagues are quite upset

“Now we are hyperventilating – I’ve listened to your panel – you’re going off the dial. It is not the issue that you think it is out there, there are other things that are permeating much deeper. The nuclear debate has gone off the table. We should be manufacturing small modular reactors. Manufacture them here, they will be ubiquitous, all across the world.”

Q: Your colleagues are angry finding out about this, this week. They want to know why they weren’t told?

Joyce: Well, most of it I didn’t know about.