Barnaby Joyce says Scott Morrison never explicitly said he was also resources minister despite using special powers

Barnaby Joyce said Scott Morrison never explicitly told him he had sworn himself in as resources minister despite the former prime minister exercising special powers associated with the role, as prime minister Anthony Albanese said his predecessor’s actions could be subject to further inquiries.

In a testy interview, Joyce also told ABC’s Insiders program on Sunday that he did not want to “go into bat” on the apparent increased powers because he believed the Nationals risked losing previously negotiated gains.

Albanese said while it did not appear the former prime minister did anything illegal in appointing himself to health, finance, resources, home affairs and Treasury – without the public or most of the extant minister’s knowledge – he believed there needed to be further examination.

“I’m not going to pre-empt the advice that we receive, but very clearly there’s a need for proper scrutiny of what occurred here,” Albanese told Sky News. His government is due to receive advice from the solicitor general on the matter on Monday.

“This was an undermining of our parliamentary democracy and what the solicitor general will advise on is, of course, the legal issues. There’s separate questions about the functioning of our democracy, about conventions and whether any conventions have been overturned, and whether there’s a need for any reforms required to ensure that something like this can never happen again,” Albanese said.

His comments came as the former deputy prime minister insisted he did not know Morrison had sworn himself in as resources minister, and was “not particularly curious” how Morrison overruled one of his ministers.

Morrison overruled Nationals MP and former resources minister Keith Pitt on a decision over an off-shore gas licence off the coast of Newcastle for a project known as Pep-11. Pitt said he only learned Morrison had installed himself in his portfolio when he took the decision out of his hands.

Joyce became visibly exasperated at being asked what he knew, and when, while appearing on Insiders on Sunday morning, claiming his mind was on “other things”.

Asked whether he knew Morrison was also the minister for resources, Joyce replied: “He never said to me ‘I was the minister for resources’, he never said that to me.”

Pressed on how Joyce then explained that Morrison made this decision, Joyce said, “Well, he never said he was. He obviously had the power to do it.”

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Joyce said that while there was “no distinct conversation that happened” he became aware that Morrison possessed the power to make that decision “obliquely over a period of time. The Pep-11 decision was made by the prime minister. It is on file. You can watch it yourself.”

At the same time, Joyce insisted Pitt was “responsible on all issues” as the minister – except Pep-11.

Joyce took back the Nationals leadership in 2021 from Michael McCormack during a party room brawl over the Coalition’s net zero target, which ended with the Nationals being promised more funding for regional NSW, an additional minister in cabinet, and, as Joyce revealed on Sunday, extra staff.

The deal between the prime minister and the Nationals was largely kept secret. Joyce said “over a period of time” he became aware Morrison had greater powers on Pep-11 than he had assumed, but he did not “go into bat” because it would have been a “bad outcome for the National party”.

“I had negotiated an extra minister. And I thought, well, I can ask myself three questions – is it legal? Well it is legal under Section 64, he can do that. Is there anything I can do to change back? No.

“Has he got the capacity to renegotiate my extra minister that I just dealt into the National party hand? He could say yeah, I’ll fix the problem mate, I’ll just take the ministry back off you, it’s gone. Now problem fixed for you, problem fixed for me –bad outcome for the National party.”

Joyce said he didn’t ask extra questions or push over the Pep-11 decision to protect his negotiated wins.

“Well, I had negotiated an extra minister which we were not entitled to. I had another person on ERC [Expenditure Review Committee] which … I had negotiated more staff than the National party, which we were not entitled to,” he said.

“We brought about one of the biggest deals in looking after regional Australia in the history of Australia.”

Joyce said Morrison did not say he would take away the Nationals’ extra positions but was certain he would, and accused those who were exercised over Morrison’s unprecedented actions of “hyperventilating”.

“I’ve been in politics about 18 years, mate, I know how it works,” he said.

“Now we are hyperventilating – I listen to your panel – you’re going off the dial! It is not the issue that you think it is. Out there are other things that are permeating. The nuclear debate has gone off the table. We should be manufacturing small modular reactors. Manufacture them, they will be ubiquitous, all across the world. Crazy.”