Cabinet secretary denies telling Boris Johnson that Covid rules were followed at all times in No 10 – UK politics live
No 10 #No10
Johnson suggests ‘unsocially distanced farewell gatherings’ were allowed at work under Covid guidance
This is what Boris Johnson said to Sir Bernard Jenkin when Jenkin asked him what he would have said if he had been asked what he would say to any business that wanted to hold “unsocially distanced farewell gatherings” during lockdown.
Johnson replied:
I would have said it is up to organisations, as the guidance says, to decide how they are going to implement the guidance amongst them. Where they can’t do social distancing perfectly, they can’t maintain two metres or one metre, they are entitled to have mitigations. And we did indeed have plenty of mitigations.
(I don’t think anyone did ask during the press conferences if crowded leaving dos were OK under the rules. That is because, to most people, the answer was obvious. And although Johnson claims he would have answered in these terms, Prof Sir Chris Whitty would surely have given a very different answer.)
Updated at 11.58 EDT
Key events
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Johnson confirms he was not told explicitly that 18 December Christmas drinks were within Covid guidance
Johnson suggests he should have told MPs following guidance did not, to him, meaning following it perfectly
Johnson says by 8 December 2021 he realised he was getting ‘conflicting information’ about Christmas drinks year before
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Harman says the questions are all over.
She asks if Johnson has any final points to make.
Johnson says he has “much enjoyed” the discussion.
Someone in the room laughs loudly.
Harman says the committee will consider what he has said.
But it may take other written or oral evidence, she says.
And with that she closes the session.
Harriet Harman says “finally” she wants to address the point about when Johnson corrected the record.
Q: You said when you corrected the record that at gatherings you attended that the guidance had been followed at all times. Will you correct that?
Johnson says the rules were followed. And it was his belief at the time that the guidance was followed “and it remains my belief”.
Q: What is your belief now?
Johnson says he does not want to dissent from what he said in 25 May last year.
Q: Do you accept that there was a degree of recklessness?
Johnson says nobody wants to tell the Commons something that is not true.
What he said was based on his genuine understanding and belief, he says.
It was not obvious to him there were problems with some events, and it was not obvious to some others too.
Johnson says his supporters should not be calling committee kangaroo court
Sir Charles Walker (Con) goes next.
He asks about Conservative Post, the pro-Johnson website. The website has run a campaign against the privileges committee inquiry. Yet when the Commons voted to hold this inquiry, the government, led by Johnson at the time, did not oppose it.
Johnson confirms that.
Q: So it is misleading for Conservative Post to criticise Tory MPs for not opposing the inquiry.
Johnson accepts that.
Q: On 14 June 2022 there was a motion to add Harriet Harman to the committee. When the motion was put, not a single MP objected? Is that right?
Of course, says Johnson.
Q: So if MPs did have concerns about the committee, someone would have objected?
Johnson says he has said what he has said about the concern about Harman being impartial. He says he has come to the committee confident it will be impartial.
Q: Your supporters seem to want it both ways. They are hoping the committee will exonerate you. But just in case it doesn’t, they want to delegitimise us. Do you see us as a kangroo court?
Johnson says the committee can tell from the respect he has shown it how he views it. This is the body that decides these matters. He does not think the committee can find he wittingly misled parliament.
Q: Do you regret your supporters have called the committee a kangaroo court?
Johnson says there should be no attempt to intimidate the committee.
Q: So do you regret that?
Johnson says he deprecates that term. (It is one used by Jacob Rees-Mogg just today – see 1.57am.)
Alberto Costa intervenes.
Q: Do you think the committee could be wrong, but still fair?
Johnson says it would have been “insane” for him to lie to the Commons. He says he is sure the committee will find in its favour.
Asked if he will accept it is acting in good faith if it doesn’t, Johnson says he will wait to see what it concludes.
Back at the commitee, Sir Bernard Jenkin (Con) says if he was accused of law breaking, and if he had to speak to the Commons, he would want legal advice.
Johnson says he was not accused of law breaking.
Q: Jenkin says, if he was accused of breaking rules, he would want to “copperplate” his assurances by taking proper advice. But he did not.
Johnson says before the first PMQs he thought Keir Starmer would not bother to ask about the story.
He asks the relevant people, senior people, about the matter.
Q: You did not ask the cabinet secretary.
Johnson says he asked the cabinet secretary on 7 December to investigate.
Rishi Sunak paid more than £400,000 in tax last year, tax return shows
Turning away from the hearing for a moment, ITV’s Robert Peston has the headline figures from Rishi Sunak’s tax return.
Harriet Harman tells Johnson assurances he relied on when speaking to MPs were ‘flimsy’
Harriet Harman says she was in the Commons at the time when she heard him talk about his assurances. MPs thought they were serious assuranced.
Yet they were from political advisers, not civil servants; the advisers had their own doubts; the assurances covered rules, not guidance; and they only covered one event.
So can you see why MPs are dismayed about the “flimsy nature” of these assurance, she asks.
Johnson disputes this. He says Jack Doyle and James Slack had both given assurances about Christmas drinks event.
Johnson says Doyle did not tell him that he (Doyle) had doubts about the event.
He says if the committee tells him he cannot rely on advice from people like Doyle and Slack, it would be difficult for government to carry on.
Q: Some might see your reliance on the purported assurances you received as a “deflection mechanism”.
Johnson says that would be a “completely ridiculous” assessment.
Q: You relied on Jack Doyle’s assurances. But he himself was doubtful about the events complying with the guidance. Look at the messages on page 79 of the bundle. He was “struggling” to come up with a way the gathering was within the rules. Did you know he had doubts about that?
Johnson says he was not aware of that. Doyle did not send that WhatsApp to him. And it was on 25 January, long after the reports first came in.
He says Doyle was not at the June 2020 event.
Johnson confirms he was not told explicitly that 18 December Christmas drinks were within Covid guidance
Q: Is it right that you received no assurances that the event on 18 December 2020 complied with Covid guidance? Jack Doyle made this point in written evidence. (See 11.31am.)
Johnson says that was correct. But nobody had said anything “adverse about the guidance”, he says. (In other words, he says he was not told it was against the guidance either.)
Updated at 12.46 EDT