Australia politics live: Turnbull says he trusted ‘technocrat’ Tudge on robodebt scheme despite expressing doubts over WhatsApp

Malcom Turnbull raised initial concerns about robodebt with minister Alan Tudge in early 2017, inquiry hears

Appearing at a royal commission on Monday, Turnbull spoke to WhatsApp messages of discussions between the then prime minister and key ministers Alan Tudge and Christian Porter at the initial height of the scandal in early 2017.

His statement includes a 7 January 2017 message Turnbull sent with a link to a Sydney Morning Herald article by Peter Martin, which suggested the program could be unlawful.

Tudge replied in the exchange by saying “it is not correct that we simply take the average of the income declared to ATO and apply that average across 26 fortnight”.

Despite Tudge’s explanation, the commissioner, Catherine Holmes ACS, told the inquiry on Monday that was how the scheme often worked.

Asked if it became apparent that’s what was happening, Turnbull said he didn’t “recall that”.

More broadly, Turnbull said he had accepted what Tudge had said as the “responsible minister”.

Asked if he believed Tudge had a good grasp on how the system worked, Turnbull said: “Alan Tudge, I always regarded as a technocrat. He was a management consultant. I didn’t regard him as being a negligent or incompetent or careless minister.”

Turnbull told the inquiry that later, on 20 January 2017, he messaged Tudge saying they needed a “frank assessment of what the problems are and what is happening to fix them.” Turnbull said he was pressing Tudge to do his job and queried whether the department was giving him the right information.

Turnbull also defended the scheme at a press conference on 18 January 2017, later messaging Tudge to ask if he had answered “correctly”.

Turnbull said he had little independent recollection of the time aside from the WhatsApp messages and other documents.

The inquiry continues.

Updated at 20.23 EST

Key events

Back to the Referendum Machinery Act: Indigenous Australians minister Linda Burney says the government will move its own amendments to the bill in the Senate.

The exact basis of the pamphlet, for instance, is not yet clear, with some independent MPs like David Pocock and Zali Steggall calling for independent fact-checking of the essays – but the government says the spirit of the amendments is to bring the Referendum Act into line with laws governing normal elections, which hints at there being no special fact-checking apparatus.

We’ll see what those amendments look like later on.

Steggall spoke in the House right after Burney, raising again her concerns about truth in political advertising and fact checking: “It really should happen,” she said of the need to avoid misinformation in the campaign.

The Warringah MP claimed people felt “cheated” that there were no rules outlawing lies in political ads.

The government knows it needs to protect truth but is failing to do that,” Steggall said.

If this isn’t the right time, when will be?”

Just returning to the issue of TikTok on government devices:

Last year the home affairs minister, Clare O’Neil, asked her department to review the cyber security implications of all forms of social media on government devices. That obviously includes TikTok but is not limited to it.

We’re told the review isn’t far off. It is understood the Department of Home Affairs is likely to hand its report to O’Neil within weeks.

Albanese to join Universities Australia chief Catriona Jackson on India visit this week

Visit comes as the government turns its sights on the education sector.

It follows a university delegation to India last week, led by education minister Jason Clare, where he signed an expansive mutual qualifications agreement with his counterpart and 11 memorandas of understanding were signed between Australian and Indian educators.

Jackson said higher education and research were “central pillars” of the Australia-India relationship.

Jackson:

Universities fully support the government’s focus on strengthening Australia’s ties with India – one of the fastest growing economies in the world and a very important strategic partner.

We especially welcome education being front and centre as our governments move to strengthen the bilateral relationship. India is undertaking sweeping reforms of its education sector and they want our help.

India’s new education plan includes the goal of educating 500 million students by 2035, while also encouraging international universities to establish campuses onshore.

It’s in our national interest to continue strengthening our trade links, and we can do that by educating Indian students in Australia, research collaborations and through our universities having a physical presence in India.

It’s clear we are entering a golden era in our trade relationship with India, and we must make the most of it for the social, diplomatic and economic benefit of both our nations.

Jackson said there were now more Indian students studying in Australia than before the pandemic, making India Australia’s second largest and fastest growing international student market.

Data released by the Department of Education found international student fees were the second highest source of revenue for universities behind government funding, bringing in $8.7bn in revenue. At some institutions, international students accounted for more than 40% of yearly income.

Updated at 20.45 EST

Linda Burney asks Coalition to ‘meet us halfway’ on voice referendum amendments

Indigenous Australians minister Linda Burney has asked the Coalition to “meet us halfway” and support the changes to the Referendum (Machinery Provisions) Act, after shadow treasurer Angus Taylor said the opposition would stand against the amendments until more of its demands were met.

Burney said the government had made a “significant concession” by reinstating the official information pamphlet, setting out the official cases of the yes and no side, and called on the Coalition to compromise.

To step back for a minute: there are two bills the government needs to pass before setting up the voice to parliament referendum. There’s the constitutional amendment bill, which sets out the question and the exact wording to be inserted into the constitution, which will come later this month; but first there’s the Referendum Machinery Act changes, the rules governing the vote.

The government planned to modernise that act, by updating rules around financial disclosures, banning foreign campaigners, and initial plans to scrap the official 2,000-word essays mailed out to every household. After Coalition criticism, the government agreed to bring back the pamphlet.

But the Coalition also wants to have public funding given to both the official yes and no sides. The government hoped bringing back the pamphlet would be enough to win back the opposition, but in a speech to parliament this morning, Taylor said the Coalition still planned to oppose the bill unless the government set up and funded official campaign bodies.

Burney, speaking right afterwards, noted the government had already changed its plans after Coalition suggestions: “I hope the opposition sees this and meets us halfway to support this legislation”.

Labor doesn’t necessarily need the Coalition to back the bill, as the Greens have already pledged support – but the government is keen to try and get some level of bipartisanship on the referendum.

Updated at 20.41 EST

Malcolm Turnbull has joined the ranks of podcasters

He has joined LiSTNR with “Defending Democracy with Malcolm Turnbull’, a six-part podcast series with “key global and local political figures and commentators including former British prime minister Theresa May, former US Republican Party congressman Adam Kinzinger, veteran Homeland Security official John Cohen, Australian Members of Parliament Allegra Spender MP and Zali Steggall MP, journalist and Nobel Peace Prize laureate Maria Ressa, and American author and expert on Russian disinformation Nina Jankowicz”.

Don’t expect Turnbull and guests to sit around smoking cigars while bragging about their gains.

Together they question if liberal democracies can prevail against populist authoritarians. Can we stop the madness of the ‘angertainment’ industry without stifling free speech? What lessons can Americans learn from Australian democracy and what warnings can Australians take from America, from Europe and closer to home here in Asia?

The first two episodes are out where you get your podcasts.

Updated at 20.33 EST

Paterson on TikTok use by federal agencies: ‘It doesn’t have to be a government-wide ban’

James Paterson was asked if there was room for nuance in this debate in terms of a ban on all agencies. A journalist pointed out that some agencies like the National Gallery and Tourism Australia have said that they use TikTok for marketing and outreach purposes. The Liberal senator replied:

I think some exceptions could be granted in exceptional circumstances. It doesn’t have to be a government-wide ban. But at the moment, there’s not a clear direction centrally from government. It appears that individual departments and agencies are making their own decisions about that and it’s not clear that that’s informed by the best advice and that they’re considering that advice.

Asked how many agencies had TikTok bans and restrictions in place at the time of the change of government last May – whether more may have actually taken action since Labor took office – the former chair of the intelligence and security committee said:

I don’t know. I’ve only asked these questions now that I’ve got the opportunity to as the shadow minister for cybersecurity, this has never been previously asked or publicised.

Q: Why didn’t your government take more action on this? It seems like after the fact now you’re calling on the government to do it when your government could have taken stronger action?

Well, there’s been two key developments since the election. The first was in July last year, when I wrote to TikTok, and I asked them, ‘Do you allow Australian user data to be accessed in China?’ And they acknowledged in the reply to me that they did. That was the first time the company had ever admitted publicly that that happens.

Paterson also cited a report by Forbes in December 2022 that said an internal investigation by ByteDance – TikTok’s parent company – found employees tracked multiple journalists covering the company in an attempt to identify whether they had been in the same locales as ByteDance employees.

At the time, a spokesperson for TikTok told Forbes:

The misconduct of certain individuals, who are no longer employed at ByteDance, was an egregious misuse of their authority to obtain access to user data. This misbehaviour is unacceptable, and not in line with our efforts across TikTok to earn the trust of our users.

The office of the minister for home affairs, Clare O’Neil, and ByteDance have been contacted for comment.

Updated at 20.31 EST

Liberal James Paterson: Labor has ‘haphazard and inconsistent approach’ to TikTok security

The Liberal senator James Paterson is on the warpath today regarding TikTok on government devices. Paterson, who is the shadow minister for cybersecurity and countering foreign interference, held a press conference in the Senate courtyard to outline figures based on questions he had asked a range of government agencies and departments.

Paterson said 25 Australian government agencies had banned TikTok entirely on employees’ devices, 12 had imposed partial restrictions, 11 permitted TikTok, while five either didn’t respond or gave vague answers:

This is a haphazard and inconsistent approach from the Albanese government and we need clear action from them on this issue. For eight months now, since July last year*, I’ve been calling on them to act to protect Australians from the serious national security risks posed by TikTok. Had they acted then, Australia could have led the world like we did with Huawei when we banned it [from the 5G network] in 2018, a decision which has been vindicated by many other countries following our lead.

* That would be from two months after the Coalition government lost office.

Paterson said Australia’s friends and allies were acting on TikTok and that showed it was “a very serious threat and we need to address it”:

And the question that the Albanese government and the minister for Home Affairs and Cyber Security, Clare O’Neil, has to answer is: if it’s not safe to be on the phone of a Canadian or American or European bureaucrat, why is it safe to be on the phone of an Australian government bureaucrat? …

I hope the government is not tolerating unacceptable national security risks for the sake of the bilateral relationship [with China].

Updated at 20.26 EST

Turnbull tells inquiry it never occurred to him robodebt was ‘unauthorised’

Malcolm Turnbull has told a royal commission he didn’t turn his mind to the legality of the robodebt scheme, saying it never occurred to him that it was “unauthorised”.

The former prime minister told the inquiry on Monday:

My concern was essentially accuracy and fairness … we didn’t turn our mind to legality or lawfulness because we assumed [it] was how it had been represented [legal].

The decision to implement robodebt was made by Tony Abbott’s cabinet for the May 2015 budget, but the scheme was launched at scale during Turnbull’s prime ministership.

Turnbull pointed to the 2015 cabinet submission brought by then social services minister, Scott Morrison, “which expressly stated” that “no legislation is required”.

The representation … is legislation is not required. It’s clear what it says.

Other ministers responsible for the scheme, including Alan Tudge, have also pointed to the checklist, telling the royal commission they were essentially misled by the public service.

The inquiry continues.

Updated at 20.22 EST