Australia news live: Stuart Robert faces questions over robodebt scheme; hundreds evacuated in NT floods

Robert says he made false statements about robodebt in TV interviews because it was ‘the approach that cabinet had signed off’

Robert is admitting he made false statements about robodebt in media interviews because of cabinet solidarity.

Asked about his interview with Laura Tingle in August 2019, Robert says “one doesn’t tend to forget interviews with Laura Tingle.”

Robert’s response to Tingle’s questions about income averaging was a flat-out defence of it. He tells the commission now he was bound by cabinet solidarity regardless of his personal views at the time.

Scott:

Do you accept, Mr Robert, that what you’ve said in response to that question from Ms Tingle is inconsistent with the state of mind you assert you held at the conclusion of the deep dive session?

Robert:

Yes I do, keeping in mind if I’ve got a personal opinion, my next step is to seek the appropriate advice, until such time as that arrives, I remain a cabinet minister and I am responsible for holding the cabinet line which is what I have done in the interview.

… In every interview government ministers are expected to show confidence in the government. Cabinet ministers can’t go out and defend some parts of the government’s program and be wishy-washy on others. That is just not how a government can operate Sir, respectfully.

Robert was also asked about his interview with David Speers in July 2019:

Holmes:

Your evidence was that you could not raise a debt based solely on averaging.

Robert:

That was my belief, yes.

Holmes:

And in 90% of cases that is exactly what was happening under the program to your knowledge.

Robert:

That is correct.

Holmes:

So what you said there, to your knowledge, at the time was false.

Robert:

My personal view, yes, but I am still a government minister and it is still a government program and this was the approach that cabinet had signed off on three or four years earlier and had been going on and until such time as I’m not a lawyer, I’ve got a competent legal view, it is still just my opinion.

Probed that he knew the departmental figures couldn’t be right, Robert answers:

I had a massive personal misgiving, yes, but I’m still a cabinet minister.

Holmes:

Yes, but it doesn’t compel you to say things that you don’t believe to be true, surely? It’s one thing to stick to the policy and say this is how we do it and we are confident in the program but to actually give statistics which you couldn’t have believed to be accurate is another thing, isn’t it?

Robert:

They were the numbers from the department based on the working approach to how the program was being run. They were the accepted figures by government to use. And as a dutiful cabinet minister, that is what we do.

Updated at 20.49 EST

Key events

Coalition vows to back Labor submarine choice

Opposition Leader Peter Dutton has pledged the coalition will support the Albanese government’s choice of nuclear submarine despite suggesting US vessels are the best option.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is expected to travel to Washington this month to announce alongside US President Joe Biden and his UK counterpart, Rishi Sunak, which submarine Australia will acquire under the AUKUS security partnership.

Dutton has repeatedly insisted the American Virginia-class submarines remain the quickest and cheapest option for Australia as speculation mounts an under-development British boat will be chosen.

But he said the government will receive bipartisan support for its decision.

The former defence minister told 2GB radio today:

Labor’s going to make a decision about which submarine they go with, but we’ll support whatever decision they take.

Dutton said his preference for the US model was “no slight on the Brits”.

The Brits have been allies of ours forever and for the sake of our country I hope that’s always the case of the future.

– AAP

Wong extends Australia’s condolences to Turkey at G20 meeting

Foreign minister Penny Wong has caught up with her Turkish, Singaporean and Canadian counterparts on the sidelines of the G20 foreign ministers meeting.

Wong has personally conveyed to her Turkish counterpart Australia’s deepest condolences as they rebuild from last month’s earthquakes.

She has also discussed cooperation on the energy transition and combatting food insecurity with Singapore, as well as Canada’s Indo-Pacific Strategy.

Updated at 21.50 EST

NSW MPs trade barbs in housing debate

The politicians vying for control of the New South Wales coffers have been questioned on their plans for housing in Sydney.

Labor’s Mookhey said there needed to be a rebalancing of where development happens, including greater density “across the city” rather than focusing just on Western Sydney.

Treasurer Kean rebuked:

I hope every person living in a ‘teal’ seat has just heard Labor’s plan for overdevelopment across the city’s east and north.

Asked to describe each other in one word, Kean called Mookhey a “unionist” and Mookhey called Kean a “showman”.

The debate has concluded.

Updated at 21.34 EST

Labor stands by policy on public sector wages

New South Wales Labor’s treasury spokesperson, Daniel Mookhey, defended Labor’s plan to scrap the public sector wage cap if it forms government after 25 March.

He said that the government should not be able to avoid bargaining with workers as private companies are required to do, which he also argued was causing people to leave the public sector.

He said:

When we are facing such a critical shortage, when we don’t even have enough teachers in our classrooms, then yes, we say it is time to do something differently.

Treasurer, Matt Kean, said the policy would cost businesses who would have to compete with the government for labour.

He said:

We have a wage cap in place that’s maintained fiscal discipline, which is how we’ve delivered the services and infrastructure that this state deserves. If that wages cap is removed, then it will blow the budget.

Updated at 21.18 EST

A graph compiled by the Sydney Morning Herald last week used ATO data to reveal the breakdown of the 300,000 Australians with more than $1m in superannuation in 2019.

Ever since, speculation has been rife as to the identity of the person with $544m in their super account but news.com.au has crossed one suspect off the list.

Yesterday a spokesperson for Gina Rinehart told the publication she does not own the country’s richest super account:

I can confirm that Mrs Rinehart is not the person with that $544 million super balance.

NSW Coalition and Labor vie for business votes

The New South Wales treasurer, Matt Kean, and opposition treasury spokesperson, Daniel Mookhey, are making their pitches to the NSW business community at an event at the Sydney CBD.

Kean used the Business NSW event to announce a Coalition government would pay businesses dealing with the state within five business days.

He said:

We understand that cashflow is critically important for your success now and into the future.

Kean took aim at Labor’s plan to lift public sector wages:

What it will mean for each and every one of you is that you will now be competing for labour against the public service who were paying huge wage increases. Imagine what happens when you’re competing against the might of government and the public servants who were paid huge pay increases.

Labor’s Mookhey said part of his plan to improve the economy was to stabilise the energy grid and energy prices, as well as bring manufacturing onshore. He said:

We are committed to creating the NSW energy security cooperation, whose mission is to partner with you [businesses] to stabilise the grid so we can bring on more of the future power we need at a price people can afford. I want NSW to be a state that makes things again.

Updated at 21.00 EST

NSW Greens announce energy policy to ‘decarbonise the economy’

The NSW Greens have announced their energy policy heading into the March state election with a plan to “decarbonise the economy and deliver affordable renewable energy, for every household”.

Under the plan, the party says it would establish a new public, non-profit electricity company called PowerNSW to reduce power bills. They would also invest in publicly owned renewable energy projects, stop all new coal and gas projects and phase out the use of coal and gas for energy by 2030. Gas would be banned on new builds from 1 July 2024.

There is also a proposed package to support households and tackle energy poverty with:

rollout of energy efficiency upgrades,

rebates and zero interest loans of up to $3,000 to help households replace gas appliances with energy efficient ones

mandated minimum efficiency and thermal comfort standards for rental properties by 2028

The Greens spokesperson for treasury and energy, Abigail Boyd, said the proposals would “deliver affordable renewable energy for every household”.

We must take back control over our power supply and ensure that we are never again at the mercy of the private market for our energy needs.

Cath Blakely, the party’s candidate for the seat of Wollongong, said the plan “will immediately provide cost-of-living relief by lowering power bills, and lays out a plan for electrification by getting one million homes off gas”.

Energy bills are skyrocketing across the state, plunging people into energy poverty, but neither NSW Labor nor the Coalition have any credible plan to reduce energy costs for households.

Updated at 21.00 EST

Robert rejects in ‘strongest possible terms’ that he didn’t take seriously robodebt advice from solicitor general

Former government services minister Stuart Robert has rejected in the “strongest possible terms” claims aired at a royal commission that he didn’t take the solicitor-general advice on the robodebt scheme seriously.

Robert also rejected as non-sensical claims levelled by the former secretary of the Department of Human Services, Renee Leon, on Tuesday that the minister had responded to her recommendation that the program cease and the government apologise by saying “we will double down”.

The inquiry heard on Tuesday that Leon had told Robert in a November 2019 meeting that the best course following the solicitor-general’s advice was to apologise, cease the scheme and tell customers how they’d fix the problem.

She claimed Robert said they would “absolutely not be doing that” and would double down.

Asked about the alleged encounter on Thursday, Robert said:

I don’t recall that. It would be completely inconsistent with the fact that I’ve got the solicitor-general’s advice, advice I wanted.

I’d taken it to the prime minister, the prime minister had agreed to an urgent ERC, he’s agreed to ceasing averaging solely and partially, he wanted to look at further proof points … I would have relayed that to the secretary. The idea, somewhat farcically, that I’ve come out of the prime minister’s office, who’s agreed with the solicitor-general’s view, agreed to an urgent ERC the next week, that I would then ignore those two and say we’re going to double down on the same project, doesn’t make any sense at all.

Robert also rejected claims he had remarked during a verbal briefing on the solicitor-general’s advice in late October 2019 that “legal advice is just advice”.

Leon’s evidence was that Robert was briefed in writing about the risks of continuing the program following this alleged comment, which she said was evidence to demonstrate he didn’t support stopping the program.

Robert said:

I completely reject that … in the strongest possible terms. I asked for the advice, I wanted it. My department took months and months and months to get it to me, and when they had it, they ostensibly sat on it for six weeks … When I got it, I demonstrated the seriousness by walking straight into the prime minister’s office.

Updated at 20.42 EST

Dwelling approvals slump 28%, with houses at 10-year lows

We’re told by the RBA and others that the answer to solving the housing crisis is supply.

Based on the latest dwelling approvals data from the ABS out today, a boost of supply is not likely to be forthcoming for a while at least.

Total approvals slumped 27.6% in January, seasonally adjusted, more than reversing the 15.3% gain in December, the ABS says. (CBA has predicted a 7% slide in the total.)

For private sector houses, approvals sank 13.8%, the fifth month in a row of falls, bringing the number to its lowest since June 2012.

The overall dwellings retreat was led by a 49% dive in NSW and nearly 39% in Victoria, the two most populous states. Queensland, which is enjoying a bit of a population rush, bucked the trend with a 25.6% rise for the month, led mostly by new flats going up.

In value terms, the building approvals were off 18.6%.

Today’s numbers will also be a drag on economic activity which is already slowing as we saw with yesterday’s GDP numbers. With more interest rate rises to come, it won’t be surprising if approvals fall even more.

The Housing Industry Association, a lobby group for the sector, is already predicting 2023 will be the worst year in a decade for new construction.

Updated at 20.34 EST

Australia’s RMIT to launch dual degree program with India

RMIT will launch the first dual degree program with India under the nation’s sweeping new education policy.

Announced on a delegation with education minister Jason Clare at Delhi on Thursday, the higher education partnership with Birla Institute of Technology and Science will begin in mid 2023.

India’s National Education Policy came into effect in 2022 with the aim of attracting international universities to set up branch campuses in the nation and rapidly expanding its tertiary education sector.

The partnership will initially offer four undergraduate engineering programs through a dual degree and a PhD program. Students will initially learn at BITS followed by two years at RMIT, with potential careers in Australia or India.

RMIT academics will also be able to teach at BITS.

RMIT vice-chancellor professor Alec Cameron said the academy was a “strategic step” in strengthening the university’s presence in India.

BITS vice-chancellor Professor Souvik Bhattacharyya said the academy would be a “new dimension” in trans-national education and research.

We look forward to a new era of academic cooperation that will define and deliver the best attributes of a global graduate and citizen.

International academics have told Times Higher Education they are skeptical India’s policy will attract many takers, citing concerns over academic freedom and a heavily bureaucratic system.

Updated at 20.21 EST

Robert: ‘I have no choice as a cabinet minister but to defend government policy’

Robert is then asked about his doorstop interview regarding the Gordon Legal class action, which he called a “political stunt”.

Scott:

Do you accept that your assertion of a 99.2% effectiveness rate, based on the state of mind that you say you arrived at on the 4 July 2019, was false?

Robert:

I do accept that now, but again Mr Scott, as I said to the commissioner, I am still at that stage a cabinet minister. I’m still required to uphold, until such time as I am advised lawfully otherwise, the requirement for the government program, I’d still have to defend it. That is the job I’ve got.

Scott:

Despite what you knew to be the case, which is that you could not lawfully rely on income averaging as a sole basis to calculate and raise a debt?

Robert:

Despite what I thought was the case, noting I am not a lawyer …while I couldn’t reconcile the numbers that doesn’t mean I couldn’t be wrong and until such time as I have got the advice, respectfully Mr Scott I have no choice as a cabinet minister but to defend government policy.

Updated at 20.42 EST

Robert says he made false statements about robodebt in TV interviews because it was ‘the approach that cabinet had signed off’

Robert is admitting he made false statements about robodebt in media interviews because of cabinet solidarity.

Asked about his interview with Laura Tingle in August 2019, Robert says “one doesn’t tend to forget interviews with Laura Tingle.”

Robert’s response to Tingle’s questions about income averaging was a flat-out defence of it. He tells the commission now he was bound by cabinet solidarity regardless of his personal views at the time.

Scott:

Do you accept, Mr Robert, that what you’ve said in response to that question from Ms Tingle is inconsistent with the state of mind you assert you held at the conclusion of the deep dive session?

Robert:

Yes I do, keeping in mind if I’ve got a personal opinion, my next step is to seek the appropriate advice, until such time as that arrives, I remain a cabinet minister and I am responsible for holding the cabinet line which is what I have done in the interview.

… In every interview government ministers are expected to show confidence in the government. Cabinet ministers can’t go out and defend some parts of the government’s program and be wishy-washy on others. That is just not how a government can operate Sir, respectfully.

Robert was also asked about his interview with David Speers in July 2019:

Holmes:

Your evidence was that you could not raise a debt based solely on averaging.

Robert:

That was my belief, yes.

Holmes:

And in 90% of cases that is exactly what was happening under the program to your knowledge.

Robert:

That is correct.

Holmes:

So what you said there, to your knowledge, at the time was false.

Robert:

My personal view, yes, but I am still a government minister and it is still a government program and this was the approach that cabinet had signed off on three or four years earlier and had been going on and until such time as I’m not a lawyer, I’ve got a competent legal view, it is still just my opinion.

Probed that he knew the departmental figures couldn’t be right, Robert answers:

I had a massive personal misgiving, yes, but I’m still a cabinet minister.

Holmes:

Yes, but it doesn’t compel you to say things that you don’t believe to be true, surely? It’s one thing to stick to the policy and say this is how we do it and we are confident in the program but to actually give statistics which you couldn’t have believed to be accurate is another thing, isn’t it?

Robert:

They were the numbers from the department based on the working approach to how the program was being run. They were the accepted figures by government to use. And as a dutiful cabinet minister, that is what we do.

Updated at 20.49 EST

Robert says it’s ‘unconscionable’ he was not given the advice

Robert:

The fact that that would not be given to me in writing is simply unconscionable. And I’ve chosen my words carefully.

Updated at 19.47 EST

Robert says he didn’t receive AGS advice on 4 July

Robert is claiming he didn’t receive the advice from the Australian Government Solicitor (AGS).

This wasn’t told to me by the secretary on the 27th, it was not in the blue book, it wasn’t in brief 119 which covered all the legal aspects, it wasn’t attached to nor referred to nor inferred of, in cabinet brief 120.

So on the 4 July, what I’m hearing and seeing from you is that my department had a brief and now had it for 27 March …

Scott:

Yes.

Robert:

Therefore almost 100 days and [they] have not informed me in writing in any way shape or form. I do not recall this being briefed to me, I don’t recall my department saying on the 4 July we have an AGS advice, because if we did, my actions would have been consistent with what I did on the 7 November when the SG advice arrived.

My department had it for seven or eight weeks, I had it for two hours before I walked straight into the prime minister’s office unannounced, put it down and said, we need to stop this, that was my actions then, if I had a copy of this, or if someone had chatted to me, not too sure if I or my staff would have got to the person first to take it from them.

And then if I read that, I suspect my actions would have been the same as what I did on the 7 November as soon as I got the substantive brief in the assistant general.

Updated at 19.48 EST

Robert says decision was made to seek legal advice on partial use of ATO average income data

Robert says he started thinking the sole use of Australian Tax Office data was insufficient, but partial use might be OK, and therefore a decision was made to seek legal advice.

Scott is confirming with Robert that, based on his statement:

You then held a strong personal view that the sole use of ATO average income data was insufficient to raise the debt but was unsure the partial use of ATO average income data was sufficient to raise the debt. For that reason, you decided that the next [move] to progress the issue was to obtain legal advice.

Robert:

Yes, there would have been a discussion about it, in terms of my staff unable to answer my obtuse, using those words, examples. My recollection is that there was little pushback in the room, everyone agreed that we needed to get it right.

Updated at 20.52 EST

Stuart Robert: Treasury and Social Services ‘fundamentally different’

Robert tells the inquiry that when he began as human services minister he had previously been assistant treasurer and the way the two departments worked were “fundamentally different”.

At this point coming from Treasury, and having done over 30 bits of [legislation] in nine months I’m very attuned to how Treasury works. Reading through it all became fairly obvious to my team and I that how Treasury works is fundamentally different to how Social Security works. And trying to pair the two is always going to be incredible difficult.

Robert said the Department of Human Services had a different way of calculating from the Treasury portfolio.

He gave the example to his staff that robodebt just did not make sense if someone had earned no income for 51 weeks and then had earned $1m in the 52nd week, if you average that across 26 fortnights it would raise a debt and that could not be possible.

Updated at 20.53 EST

Stuart Robert faces questions from robodebt royal commission

Stuart Robert, the human services and government services minister during the time of the robodebt scheme, has begun to give evidence at the royal commission on the matter.

Counsel assisting Angus Scott KC will be taking Robert’s evidence.

My colleague Luke Henriques Gomes is listening in too and gives you a bit of background on Robert:

Updated at 19.29 EST

Property prices in flood-hit regions have slumped

With the anniversary of the Biblical deluges in northern NSW and south-eastern Queensland, a lot of attention has understandably been focused on the ongoing challenges facing those flood-hit communities.

Data group CoreLogic, though, has put out an assessment of what’s happened to the regions’ property prices over the past year.

Bearing in mind that capital city prices are down about 9% from their peaks (according to ANZ), it seems these regions have fared a lot worse.

Here’s CoreLogic’s assessment of the regions in northern NSW:

And the view for the suburbs around Brisbane (not quite so bad):

Kaytlin Ezzy, a CoreLogic economist, said:

While the current tightening cycle has amplified the downturn in values, the declines seen across flood-impacted suburbs are significantly steeper compared to the broader region and are among the largest suburb declines nationally.

Outside of one flood-impacted suburb in Brisbane, all other suburbs recording similar value declines were more expensive [than] Sydney suburbs, which are generally more sensitive to changes in interest rates.

Given household wealth and consumption are often linked, the slump in property prices might have a lingering effect on economic activity in the areas, it would seem.

On the other hand, would falling values attract more people to live there?

Ezzy leans towards a long-term drag, not least because of the scale of the flood events possibly precluding a rebound in property prices seen after floods in earlier years.

Given the severity of this event, and the short timeframe between major flood events, it’s likely the current value declines across the Northern Rivers and impacted house suburbs in Brisbane could be more enduring.

Notably, “homeowners, lenders and insurers are becoming more cautious of the risks associated with climate change and are adjusting their risk premiums accordingly”, Ezzy says.

Indeed, those higher risk premiums are likely to extend to other regions exposed to climate extremes in a warming world. Given Australia’s notoriously volatile climate, particularly for rainfall, that could just about take in the whole country.

Updated at 19.15 EST

Government reviewing new report on ‘gobsmacking’ sexual harassment allegations on Antarctic stations

The federal government has received another review into disturbing allegations of sexual harassment and cultural problems on remote Antarctic stations, which includes “substantial” recommendations for change.

The independent report by former Swimming Australia chief executive Leigh Russell, was commissioned by the environment department in September last year. It was prompted by an earlier report by ANU Professor Meredith Nash, which raised allegations of unwanted physical contact, displays of pornography, and limited provision for women menstruating.

Environment minister Tanya Plibersek described the Nash report as disappointing and shocking. She called for urgent cultural change and the department commissioned Russell to make further recommendations to government.

“I was actually gobsmacked to read some of the reports here talking about pornographic material up on the walls [because] I really did think that we had eradicated this thing from Australians decades ago.”

Department of Climate Change, Environment and Water secretary, David Fredericks, said the Russell review makes a significant number of recommendations that need to be carefully assessed.

In a statement, Fredericks said he planned to release the report later this month:

Ms Russell’s review is a comprehensive analysis of progress on cultural change and creating an inclusive workplace, and the adequacy of systems, policies and processes to support people who work for the Australian Antarctic Division.

The report makes a substantial number of findings and it is important that we now give careful consideration to this review, its findings and recommendations.

These are complex workplace issues. our response needs to be considered and have due regard to the work, health and safety of staff.

Updated at 19.03 EST