‘Don’t be worried, but don’t be naive’ about mysterious flying objects: ex-NORAD director

The aerial objects that have been shot down over North America should be a wake-up call about just how much international espionage is being directed against Canada and the U.S., says a former security official. 

Four such objects have been brought down in recent weeks. First, U.S. military personnel shot down an alleged Chinese spy balloon that drifted over the continent earlier this month. Then on Friday, the U.S. took down an unidentified object over Alaska. 

Two more unidentified objects were brought down over the weekend by the North American Aerospace Defence Command (NORAD), a joint U.S.-Canada air defence organization. One was in Canadian airspace over Yukon, and the other was over Lake Huron, which straddles Michigan and Ontario.

The U.S. and Canada have not publicly identified the source of the three latter objects — although White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre did clarify on Sunday that they are not extraterrestrial in nature.

Scott Clancy, a retired major general and the former director of operations for NORAD, spoke to As It Happens host Nil Köksal about the mysterious objects. Here is part of their conversation.

Scott, we did hear these were not aliens, but what do we know about what they are? 

What we know is that these objects, that were shot down by NORAD over the course of the last three days, are of this Earth. I think that that’s the first thing that we can say.

The descriptions from the pilots, [and] the descriptions from the commander of NORAD, Gen. [Glen] VanHerck, have been about balloon-like objects that have strings attached to them. They might be octagonal or cylindrical shaped, but they’re acting like man-made elements that are using adaptive technology for keeping them aloft and propulsion. 

Any sense from what you’re hearing, and the folks you’re speaking to, about where these latest objects may have come from? 

No, I don’t think there’s any indication of that.

First of all, none of the objects that have been shot down — other than the initial first balloon, which was already attributed to, and admitted to, by China — none of them have been recovered. I think NORAD is correct …. in not attributing this to any nation until they have the actual facts that go along to prove that. 

The remnants of a large balloon drift above the Atlantic Ocean just off the coast of South Carolina, with a fighter jet and its contrail seen below it, on Feb. 4. (Submitted by Chad Fish/The Associated Press)

We have these back-to-back incidents. What do you think Canadians should take away from all of it? 

Canadians should take two things away from this. The first thing is the NORAD agreement — [which has] been around since 1957, in which Canada and the United States mutually command and share forces to enable the security of the continent — is working very effectively, and enables not only the individual sovereignty of each nation to do what it needs to do in its own airspace, but assist the other where it’s required. 

The second thing I think that Canadians should take away from not just these last three, but also the first balloon attributed to the Chinese, [is] there’s something going on here…. I don’t have any proof behind it, and we’ll wait and see, but it is my estimation that this is the intelligence gathering activities of our adversaries at work. 

Are we spotting more of these devices because there are more of them now flying with more frequency, or because the military is taking a harder look, and looking specifically for them? 

I think the answer is both. 

Part of that is that you can detect more. Therefore, you’re going to be in a position to take action more. And, therefore, you do. 

But all of these in the same time frame, it’s not just that. So I also think that this is pointing to a concerted and co-ordinated effort by one or some of our adversaries to garner intelligence information over our critical infrastructure, our ability and capacity to respond, and perhaps the political will from Canada and the United States to do something about it. 

WATCH | Prime Minister Justin Trudeau reacts to flying objects:

As It Happens6:30’Don’t be worried, but don’t be naive’ about flying objects over Canada: ex-NORAD director

So should Canadians be worried? And what do they do with that worry? 

Instead of being worried, I think that Canadians need to be less naive [and] more astute. It’s like a veil being lifted from our eyes, right? Be eyes wide open with China and Russia.

I’ve directed forces on so many occasions to go up into Canada’s North and off our coastline to deal with the Russian bombers that approach it all the time. And they’re not there just to say hi and look at whales. They’re there to conduct the precursor to actions of war. 

Don’t be worried, but don’t be naive. Be astute as to what this means. 

And what’s your assessment of how officials have responded? You know, there was joking from [the White House] as they tried to tell people that there are no aliens here. But does that signal to you that maybe the communication around this, and the response time around this, could have been better? 

The United States’ relationship with China is very complicated economically, diplomatically [and] militarily, especially as it pertains to places like Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and the South China Sea. Therefore, before they’re going to take diplomatic action … they’re going to be very, very prudent and careful. 

Adding a little bit of levity to that just makes the diplomacy somewhat easier. But it’s a complicated relationship that’s going to take very serious diplomatic efforts to resolve. 

Scott Clancy, a retired major general, is a former director of operations with NORAD. (Trevor Godinho)

And it’s one part of a broader security analysis, security puzzle, as you well know. We spoke to a former [Canadian Security Intelligence Service] analyst [Stephanie Carvin] last week on the program, and she said she didn’t believe that … the [alleged] Chinese spy balloon was a big concern.

That was before these last few incidents. But she said that we should all be more worried about China’s cyberespionage. So do you think that there’s a risk in putting too much focus on these flying objects? 

I think that the analyst from CSIS is absolutely correct. 

[In] my job at NORAD, although we were focused on the skies … you use all of the domains — air, land, sea space, cyber.

Looking at any individual domain or action on its own doesn’t give you the full picture of what the merits of that are. So, for example, in the case of these objects, or of the Chinese balloon, if an adversary floats those things overtop of our airspace, they are at the same time inside of our computer systems using offensive cyber operations to see what our actions are, which command and control nodes are activated, who’s talking to who.

And that would be very, very telling for an adversary that wanted to first maybe do an incursion later on — or even at the political level, gauge what kind of political will there is if they were going to do something that was more likening to a crisis, like an incursion across the Taiwan Strait. 

That’s why I think that it’s not just about the balloon, it’s not just about these objects … and not just about China. It’s about all of our adversaries and what we need to do to secure our country.